Jump to content
Blue Purple Red Orange Gold Green Teal Chocolate Charcoal
Blue Purple Red Orange Gold Green Teal Chocolate Charcoal
WacoKid

Reditor Pitches Tab

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Got Reditor working on my laptop finally.  Was perusing through getting familiar and I noticed there is a pitches tab to my chagrin.  There is an area to adjust the trajectories of the actual pitches, as well as horizontal and vertical movement.  One thing I noticed specifically with horizontal movement, there are 2 values.  The first is generally left empty, Horizontal impulse.  The next one is labeled parameter 4, but is described and an unknown parameter, and looks to be Horizontal impulse 2 for the second phase of the pitches flight, since it is usually where that value is input for.  Has anyone ever messed with this value, didn't see any topics here or at OPS?   

 

Watching video of pitches, and then how they appear in the game, There is opportunity to bring new life to a pitching system that is already pretty solid in my opinion.  I'm going to mess around with the Horizontal impulse 1 for certain pitches, initially 2 seam fastballs and change-ups to see if i can get a more realistic effect for the balls path to the plate.  2 seam fastballs in game, just seem to kind of start straight, and then break late.  In real life, part of the deception of a good two seamer, is that it initially looks like it may be inside/outside and cuts back to catch a corner, or generally fool the hitter long enough to make them not swing, miss, or draw soft contact.  The deception starts upon release.  Linked some videos for reference to what i mean. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by WacoKid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KC I am trying to correct the fielding errors when the infielder waiting for the cut is running and I am activating the gameplay in some sectors of 2011 that in 2012 were in errors or null in what I verify my theory I warn you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, WacoKid said:

Got Reditor working on my laptop finally.  Was perusing through getting familiar and I noticed there is a pitches tab to my chagrin.  There is an area to adjust the trajectories of the actual pitches, as well as horizontal and vertical movement.  One thing I noticed specifically with horizontal movement, there are 2 values.  The first is generally left empty, Horizontal impulse.  The next one is labeled parameter 4, but is described and an unknown parameter, and looks to be Horizontal impulse 2 for the second phase of the pitches flight, since it is usually where that value is input for.  Has anyone ever messed with this value, didn't see any topics here or at OPS?   

 

Watching video of pitches, and then how they appear in the game, There is opportunity to bring new life to a pitching system that is already pretty solid in my opinion.  I'm going to mess around with the Horizontal impulse 1 for certain pitches, initially 2 seam fastballs and change-ups to see if i can get a more realistic effect for the balls path to the plate.  2 seam fastballs in game, just seem to kind of start straight, and then break late.  In real life, part of the deception of a good two seamer, is that it initially looks like it may be inside/outside and cuts back to catch a corner, or generally fool the hitter long enough to make them not swing, miss, or draw soft contact.  The deception starts upon release.

 

I love a good two-seam fastball and I'm fairly good at throwing one in real life. Should also explain why Maddux is my favorite hurler of all time. Incredible find and analysis. I'm all for figuring this out with you and anyone interested. I moved this into the general 2K12 forum as I feel it's something that can be looked at.

 

The tab isn't explained in the 2K12 manual for REDitor, but it is in the 2K11 documentation, so I'll chime in on what I've skimmed through:

 

It looks like the game uses an Impulse value to determine the forces between the bat and the ball and momentum from when a ball leaves a pitcher's hand. (Maybe a fielder as well, but idk)

Trajectory affects to my understanding the full intended direction of a pitch thrown, according to this here, based on a RHP in the game. All values are in the inverse for a left handed pitcher:

 

 

wlUaD3n.png

 

When I first started messing with this, the values I figured that were in DownImp1 and DownImp2, given the low and then high number in them, were values for the min-max RPM (spin) of each pitch. I was wrong!

 

Maybe this influences movement along with HorzImp? From what's explained in the 2K11 REDitor manual, HorzImp is the value that determines how much a ball will go left or right depending on whether the pitcher is a lefty or a righty. This would probably explain why every value for each pitch is set to 0.  

I'm thinking that, and maybe it's because of the coffee, but @WacoKid I wonder if the value of HorizImp affects hit trajectory rather than the pitch. Tinker with the values a bit. 

 

From what I've messed with, the 2-Seamer according to the diagram above has a trajectory of 260 degrees. If it's an RHP, it's a slight dip to the left, off-center. Maybe tinkering with the HorizImp value on that pitch (like changing the value from 0 to 0.75) will make the trajectory of the pitch much more pronounced? Only one way to find out ;)

 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

@Kccitystar

Thanks for the info, I didn't think to check the 2k11 docs.  I'll read that next chance i get.  My GF leaves town for a week Saturday so I'll have some actual time into these projects.

 

I had quite a solid 2 seamer myself.  Ya need the movement when you arent overpowering anyone with your heater.  No better feeling than to catch someone looking an a corner.  With ya on Maddux,  he was a master of his craft.  

 

Did get to play around with the horizontal and trajectory values today.  On a 2 seam fastball was able to get a more realistic effect, but it was a bit over done and needs to be toned down.  Only got to run through a few at batters, but did see both ground and fly balls, not enough to determine how much it affects batted balls.  I have a video, but it recorded very small and hard to see.  I need to figure put my settings for that so I can start a thread with results of experiments.

Edited by WacoKid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, WacoKid said:

@Kccitystar

Thanks for the info, I didn't think to check the 2k11 docs.  I'll read that next chance i get.  My GF leaves town for a week Saturday so I'll have some actual time into these projects.

 

I had quite a solid 2 seamer myself.  Ya need the movement when you arent overpowering anyone with your heater.  No better feeling than to catch someone looking an a corner.  With ya on Maddux,  he was a master of his craft.  

 

Did get to play around with the horizontal and trajectory values today.  On a 2 seam fastball was able to get a more realistic effect, but it was a bit over done and needs to be toned down.  Only got to run through a few at batters, but did see both ground and fly balls, not enough to determine how much it affects batted balls.  I have a video, but it recorded very small and hard to see.  I need to figure put my settings for that so I can start a thread with results of experiments.

 

What values did you set up for the 2-Seamer? I can probably tinker with this tonight. Figure I'd copy the values of the sinker and just change a couple of things, maybe adding more vertical drop by changing the trajectory from 260 to 255?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kccitystar said:

 

What values did you set up for the 2-Seamer? I can probably tinker with this tonight. Figure I'd copy the values of the sinker and just change a couple of things, maybe adding more vertical drop by changing the trajectory from 260 to 255?

Yeah I knocked the trajectory down to 255, and had horiz impulse at 1.000(lowered to 0.750 after that) and parameter 4 I had at 0.600.  Honestly it looked funny but a little better and more noticable as to what kind of pitch it was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, WacoKid said:

Yeah I knocked the trajectory down to 255, and had horiz impulse at 1.000(lowered to 0.750 after that) and parameter 4 I had at 0.600.  Honestly it looked funny but a little better and more noticable as to what kind of pitch it was.

I think the horizImp value determines how much external forces affect the trajectory of the pitch. A knuckleball has a HorizImp value of 0.75 but if I bump this up to a 1.0 it's going to be butterfly levels.

 

From what I've been analyzing it looks like the DiffVeloc/Unexp/Traj determine the variations in "stuff" among pitchers. I changed everything to a value of 1 across the board for all of the Diff cells and it made everyone a 99 OVR apparently

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah figured moving this to 1.000 would clearly show what the effect would be.  Reading the description, it seemed to me that this was movement in the first phase of the pitches flight.  I need to figure out my recording issues so i can post good video of what i had.   Also note i also have edited the roster for the pitcher control and movement values for experimentation there as well, so it may account for some difference you are seeing.  I didnt have fluttering like a knuckleball on the 2 seamer.  I did see a little on the circle change.  Trajectory differences on those pitches could account for that as well.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/20/2020 at 3:00 PM, Kccitystar said:

When I first started messing with this, the values I figured that were in DownImp1 and DownImp2, given the low and then high number in them, were values for the min-max RPM (spin) of each pitch. I was wrong!

 

Maybe this influences movement along with HorzImp? From what's explained in the 2K11 REDitor manual, HorzImp is the value that determines how much a ball will go left or right depending on whether the pitcher is a lefty or a righty. This would probably explain why every value for each pitch is set to 0.  

I'm thinking that, and maybe it's because of the coffee, but @WacoKid I wonder if the value of HorizImp affects hit trajectory rather than the pitch. Tinker with the values a bit. 

 

From what I've messed with, the 2-Seamer according to the diagram above has a trajectory of 260 degrees. If it's an RHP, it's a slight dip to the left, off-center. Maybe tinkering with the HorizImp value on that pitch (like changing the value from 0 to 0.75) will make the trajectory of the pitch much more pronounced? Only one way to find out ;)

Ok, so update on this.  You were not totally wrong about spin rate and the downward impulse attributes.  They are connected.  I started wondering why, when for instance, a 4 seam fastball has 800 DI1, and 2400 DI2 by default has no drop.  Trajectory is everything as it relates to the values in the parameters tab.  A vanilla 4 seamer has a 0 trajectory, and is therefore unaffected by either of the downimp values.  However, I experimented with taking those values down to 0, changing nothing else, and the result was a straight, 90+ mph knuckle ball. 🥴  A fastball with no spin.  So these are connected, but i think it was to give the ball correct spin based on trajectory.  It appears to be tied the downimp and horizimp values, and gives the different pitches realistic spin. 

 

So once i discovered that, I realized if I wanted a more live 4 seamer.  I had to add some trajectory so that there would be some horizontal movement.  Average is between 4-5".  Changed its trajectory to 265, added default downimp values back in.  I also did a global edit for all pitchers to have 80 movement on all pitches, for observational purposes, movement would be the same no matter who is pitching.  This is where i discovered how individual pitch movement ratings affect things.  At default 80, a 4 seamer at that trajectory had about 1.5' of movement into a RHB, from a RHP.  Good lord!  I then went and lowered this pitchers 4 seam movement, down to 25.  The effect was much better visually, but it seemed to produce ground balls at a ridiculous rate.  So not the answer, but I've learned how all of these values interact and I've got a much better idea of how to achieve the results I want. 

 

I think the best bet to get some more realistic pitching movement effects, will be some minor trajectory adjustments, as well as tweaking the down and horiz imp to get pitches with average break and drop, at the base movement value of 80 for each pitch.  Once a realistic result for these is achieved I can begin looking at individual pitchers to give them their best weapons.  Which brings me to my next point, I think I can now start assigning pitches to players more accurately.  For example, Look at the difference between the big sweeping slider from Chris Sale, and one from Scherzer, which behaves more like a slurve in game.  So I will be working to make sure we can have these differences better represented in both how pitches behave and how they are assigned to pitchers based on their throwing style. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, WacoKid said:

Ok, so update on this.  You were not totally wrong about spin rate and the downward impulse attributes.  They are connected.  I started wondering why, when for instance, a 4 seam fastball has 800 DI1, and 2400 DI2 by default has no drop.  Trajectory is everything as it relates to the values in the parameters tab.  A vanilla 4 seamer has a 0 trajectory, and is therefore unaffected by either of the downimp values.  However, I experimented with taking those values down to 0, changing nothing else, and the result was a straight, 90+ mph knuckle ball. 🥴  A fastball with no spin.  So these are connected, but i think it was to give the ball correct spin based on trajectory.  It appears to be tied the downimp and horizimp values, and gives the different pitches realistic spin. 

 

So once i discovered that, I realized if I wanted a more live 4 seamer.  I had to add some trajectory so that there would be some horizontal movement.  Average is between 4-5".  Changed its trajectory to 265, added default downimp values back in.  I also did a global edit for all pitchers to have 80 movement on all pitches, for observational purposes, movement would be the same no matter who is pitching.  This is where i discovered how individual pitch movement ratings affect things.  At default 80, a 4 seamer at that trajectory had about 1.5' of movement into a RHB, from a RHP.  Good lord!  I then went and lowered this pitchers 4 seam movement, down to 25.  The effect was much better visually, but it seemed to produce ground balls at a ridiculous rate.  So not the answer, but I've learned how all of these values interact and I've got a much better idea of how to achieve the results I want. 

 

I think the best bet to get some more realistic pitching movement effects, will be some minor trajectory adjustments, as well as tweaking the down and horiz imp to get pitches with average break and drop, at the base movement value of 80 for each pitch.  Once a realistic result for these is achieved I can begin looking at individual pitchers to give them their best weapons.  Which brings me to my next point, I think I can now start assigning pitches to players more accurately.  For example, Look at the difference between the big sweeping slider from Chris Sale, and one from Scherzer, which behaves more like a slurve in game.  So I will be working to make sure we can have these differences better represented in both how pitches behave and how they are assigned to pitchers based on their throwing style. 

 

giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47afa34fc9768b7ccf98

 

Progress is a process brother!

 

Great stuff!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Kccitystar said:

 

giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47afa34fc9768b7ccf98

 

Progress is a process brother!

 

Great stuff!

Thanks for your help and answering my questions.  I'm confident I'll have something great to turn in for your 2k20 roster project.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, WacoKid said:

Thanks for your help and answering my questions.  I'm confident I'll have something great to turn in for your 2k20 roster project.

 

No prob. I'm trying to figure out what these are: 

9xby0UW.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kccitystar said:

 

No prob. I'm trying to figure out what these are: 

9xby0UW.png

Not sure, my guess was P4 was horizimp2.  Ive played with the number and it doesnt seem to effect anything else.  The diff is probably for hitters.  At first i thought this was the difficulty at executing the pitch, but it doesnt make sense for the pitcher to find what he is throwing unexpected.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WacoKid said:

Not sure, my guess was P4 was horizimp2.  Ive played with the number and it doesnt seem to effect anything else.  The diff is probably for hitters.  At first i thought this was the difficulty at executing the pitch, but it doesnt make sense for the pitcher to find what he is throwing unexpected.  

 

Maybe Unexp is the penalty when you go beyond the MAX effort?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kccitystar said:

 

Maybe Unexp is the penalty when you go beyond the MAX effort?

I'll have a look when im off work.  I'll set it 0 and see what happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Kccitystar said:

 

Maybe Unexp is the penalty when you go beyond the MAX effort?

K so, I took this value down to zero, and this happened to the overall rating of Chris Sale, and the average FB rating for the entire league.  So this is a big part of the overall rating of the pitch itself.  I did pitch to contact with it, and didn't notice it getting hit harder than usual.  I threw a few pitches going beyond the pitch meter max, still did the same thing it usually does, go where ever.  One thing I have noticed with the three values DifVeloc, DivUnexpec, and DifTraj is that they add up to 100 for all pitches.  These values seem to build the system on which pitch overall ratings are determined.  I just don't know how they affect game play.

 

Major League Baseball 2K12 7_15_2012 12_04_07 AM.png

Edited by WacoKid
Additional details

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, WacoKid said:

K so, I took this value down to zero, and this happened to the overall rating of Chris Sale, and the average FB rating for the entire league.  So this is a big part of the overall rating of the pitch itself.  I did pitch to contact with it, and didn't notice it getting hit harder than usual.  I threw a few pitches going beyond the pitch meter max, still did the same thing it usually does, go where ever.  One thing I have noticed with the three values DifVeloc, DivUnexpec, and DifTraj is that they add up to 100 for all pitches.  These values seem to build the system on which pitch overall ratings are determined.  I just don't know how they affect game play.

 

Major League Baseball 2K12 7_15_2012 12_04_07 AM.png

If those values only affect the pitch rating calculation, that would be fantastic

 

Curious if they affect gameplay at all

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cycloniac said:

If those values only affect the pitch rating calculation, that would be fantastic

 

Curious if they affect gameplay at all

There are 3 ratings for individual pitches.  These probably coorespond to those, and generate the overall based on velocity, movement and control.  I'll put them all to 0 later and see what happens in game.  When you change those values the ratings for the particular pitches are still there, they just dont seem to get added as part of the overall.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, WacoKid said:

There are 3 ratings for individual pitches.  These probably coorespond to those, and generate the overall based on velocity, movement and control.  I'll put them all to 0 later and see what happens in game.  When you change those values the ratings for the particular pitches are still there, they just dont seem to get added as part of the overall.  

I feel like if you zero them all out, the pitch ratings will just be the minimum possible values

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

24 minutes ago, Cycloniac said:

I feel like if you zero them all out, the pitch ratings will just be the minimum possible values

But the actual values ares still there for each pitch.  I think these numbers weight the values of control, velocity, and movement to come up with the overalls for each pitch and thats it.  For example the difveloc number for a FB is .500.  If you lowered it to .300, the velocity rating a pitcher has on their fastball will have 40% less influence on the overall rating of the pitch.  Thats my theory anyways.  Does that make sense?

Edited by WacoKid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WacoKid said:

 

But the actual values ares still there for each pitch.  I think these numbers weight the values of control, velocity, and movement to come up with the overalls for each pitch and thats it.  For example the difveloc number for a FB is .500.  If you lowered it to .300, the velocity rating a pitcher has on their fastball will have 40% less influence on the overall rating of the pitch.  Thats my theory anyways.  Does that make sense?

Right, I follow you. They control  how much each attribute is weighed into the calculation. So, my thiking is if they are all zero, either they have equal weight, or the average is nulified since none of the values matter in the calculation

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Cycloniac said:

I feel like if you zero them all out, the pitch ratings will just be the minimum possible values

I'll experiment with this in a bit and let ya know what i find.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.