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Kirby Puckett And The Rest Of Hall Of Famers


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got a Q ... can anyone do a Kirby Puckett Face along with a power roster including all the greatest hall of famers? Or just the Minnesota Twins Line up Roster during the world series years of 1991? It would be greatley appreciated, Thank you! :drinks:



Edited by Refu
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i am trying to currently create custom create-a-team uniforms (and very close) because that is what really means the most for me in the All Century Team.

i'll go through and create 25 best players ever, (in my opinion), and add them to the team.

if you want my all time roster let me know, i'll type it out and post here.

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refu i had thought about doing a all time greatest for each team a couple years ago and after i started i realized that is a project that would take more than just one person and it would something that probally would take a few months to accomplish.The bad part is even with the roster editor u can only change so many characters so my guess is u would have to start with an original roster.Then in order to be correct with stats or at least close someone would have to know what all would be needed to change for each player(unless u keep the stats from the player whose name is being replaced.Another thing would be cyberfaces and portraits.Just wouldnt be the same to see roberto clementes name and have andrew mccutcheons face lol.One other thing that im not sure what would happen is for example the clemente/mccutcheon when they come up to bat would the game announcer be announcing mccutcheons name,so a project like this would have to take some thinking and planning to be done correctly even if its just one team like u wanted.The only way to know would be for someone take one team and do this as a test to see exactly if it would even work and just not sure if anyone would be willing to take such a large task

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couldn't you just run 25 guys through the Create-a-Player?, and then assign them custom faces and portraits later on through the editor?

Once they're all created, stock players with correct heights and weights and abilities, editing their stats through the roster editor wouldn't be a problem. i could tackle this in a couple days if some one would collaborate with me and design and apply the faces. i'd punch in all the numbers and such.

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I didnt actually relize the scope of the project and how difficult it must be to create such a rich roster. But I do like olipoo's idea on Create-a-Player, I guess I could even try doing something like that and see where it takes me (-: Either way guy's THX for at least responding, I do appreciate the input and it helps to hear different points of views to ultimatly figure out how far I might wanna go with this whole roster deal.

AND olipoo YES I would like the roster, I think it would be fun to get away from the everyday regular rosters!

Edited by Refu
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25 men ... IN MY OPINION. i'm not here to listen to anyone's debates, i've got stats to back up my choices.

SP - Bob Gibson

SP - Randy Johnson

SP - Roger Clemens

SP - Sandy Koufax

SP - Greg Maddux

RP - Goose Gossage

RP - Bruce Sutter

RP - Dennis Eckersley

RP - Billy Wagner

CL - Mariano Rivera

BN - Alex Rodriguez

BN - Willie Mays

BN - Ken Griffey Jr.

BN - Rickey Henderson

BN - Albert Pujols

BN - Ivan Rodriguez

BN - Pete Rose

SS - Derek Jeter

LF - Barry Bonds

CF - Ted Williams

RF - Stan Musial

2B - Rogers Hornsby

1B - Lou Gehrig

3B - Mike Schmidt

C - Mike Piazza


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he played the outfield, had to stick him somewhere, i imagine someone of his caliber can play center field, and there's no way i'm letting arguably the best hitter to ever live not be in the starting lineup.

It's not really much of a big deal either way, but consider the following:

-- Ted Williams never played CF for even one third of an inn (though he did pitch 2 inn to close out a 12-1 loss in gm 1 of a 1940 double-dip).

-- Stan Musial DID start over 300 games in CF (about 1 out of every 6 of his OF starts).

-- Barry Bonds DID start over 150 games in CF and is often said to have been the best superstar CF to ever be a regular LF (although that statement is much more accurate when discussing his earlier years as he was faster and slimmer before he got all bulked up).

Statistically, Williams was the worst LF of the three ranking third in Fielding Percentage, Putouts per Chance and Errors per Chance. Williams was also significantly worse when in RF than in Left, so clearly he was the least versatile defensively; given those facts, you probably wouldn't want him listed in CF where he never played and would be the least likely of these three to succeed.

Musial was a far superior CF to Bonds based upon Fielding Percentage, Putouts per Chance and Errors per Chance. Despite having a breakdown in OF starts of about half in LF, 1/3 in RF and 1/6 in CF, Musial was at his best while in Center. He won the MVP Award three times, and in none of those years was his primary position LF (in fact, he won it in 1948 when he started more games in CF than any other spot). It was only Musial's tremendous versatility which kept him out of CF full time.

Despite the fact that Williams was much worse when in RF, he did start there 168 times compared to zero for Bonds.

Therefore, if there is a need to juggle positions a bit in order for things to fit with these Outfielders, the only logical choice would have to be:

-- LF - Barry Bonds

-- CF - Stan Musial

-- RF - Ted Williams

Personally, I'd throw Bonds to the bench, put Teddy where he belongs in LF, keep Stan in RF and start Willie Mays in CF.

Actually, now that I really think about it, why is Bonds on this list at all at the expense of Hammerin' Hank? Because of 7 extra homers which nobody believes are legit? How is the all-time RBI King, who had a better Average than Bonds, had more Hits, Runs Scored and Triples, and was a hell of an outfielder who could play all three spots, completely absent here? I realize that many would rather see Pete Rose go before Bonds, but I too am a Rose supporter, so given that Hank Aaron has to get a spot somewhere (must have been an oversight), that would mean kicking either Bonds or A-Rod to the curb.

Just imagine building a team, and considering everything from on the field to inside the clubhouse to ugly controversy with the press... would you take Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds or Hank Aaron? The question is so ridiculous it's practically rhetorical.

**ALSO - I realize this wasn't meant for a debate, but there is another pretty glaring omission on this list.

I love Jeter, and he's certainly had the best all around career of any modern SS, but look at the numbers and you'll see that Honus Wagner blows him right out of the water. He should be starting over him and he's not even on the bench. If a guy like Rogers Hornsby can be on this list, then Honus Wagner absolutely must be there as well.

Start Wagner at SS, move Jeter to the bench and dump A-Rod from the squad.

Platoon Musial and Aaron in RF, start Mays in CF with Williams in Left, and send Bonds packing as well.

ONE MORE -- Greg Maddux is just not a Top 5 all-time SP (not Top 10). Many could be argued, but some who surely belong ahead of him include:

-- Christy Mathewson

-- Walter Johnson

-- Tom Seaver

-- Pedro Martinez

Others who are right there worthy of a coin flip include:

-- Warren Spahn

-- Steve Carlton

-- Curt Schilling

-- Juan Marichal

Edited by Qbrick808
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ok ok. i didn't want to get into this, but you're getting me all excited and itchy. one at a time though.

as for the outfield, i'm just the GM here making suggestions, make your own defensive alignment. when it comes to a team like this, outfielders are outfielders to me. shifting them around for situational managing shouldn't be a problem.

Barry Bonds: Barry Bonds is the only man in the 500HR/500SB club. the man truly did it all. he was so feared that he walked 232 times in a season resulting in a .609 on base%. he won 7 MVP awards. Yeah, SEVEN. no one else comes close to that. 7 MVPs, the most all time deserves a roster spot. And if you want to play the steroid card, whatever, i'm not hearing it. let's see the positive tests. Let's prove which homeruns, which stolen bases, which this and that were effected by something that is only an accusation so far. i know that sounds ridiculous calling it an accusation, but i'm a guy of facts. let's talk about facts, not emotions and accusations.

choosing bonds over aaron though, i almost think of them as equals in some ways. however bonds has some more skills though. he is more feared, he proves that he's the best in the league, he steals bases. he adds another dimension to the game beyond power numbers. i understand how good Hank Aaron was. but he doesn't make my team over my other outfielders. and i included rickey henderson as a leadoff hitter coming off the bench/pinch runner. he adds a different dimension that Aaron doesn't. Same with Griffey Jr and Mays.

Honus Wagner: first of all, this is fictitious. if it were not fictitious and all these players could come back and play in their primes on the same team, i would not care about the press, or what the press thinks. the press and media makes me want to bake my head in the oven on 400 for an hour some days. it's beyond me how dumb the media can be sometimes.

Honus Wagner played in an odd time, 1897 to 1917. which wasn't your typical rememberable age of baseball. yes he has good stats, really good stats indeed. but i hate comparing stats from that time period to stats of some one like Jeter or ARod. Jeter is arguably the best Shortstop ever, maybe, plus we're also talking about Mr November if i remember that postseason as well as anyone else. Jeter has been one of the most legendary postseason players of all time. If i want 1 game to win, Jeter is going to start, hands down. and Alex Rodriguez is having one of the best careers ever. PLus ARod plays both positions on the left side of the infield. I'm honestly taking Jeter or A-Rod over Wagner any day of the week, based simply on stats and the day they played in. I have respect for our founding fathers of baseball, but not in this case.

Hornsby is on the team because he won 2 Triple Crown awards, is the best 2nd Baseman ever based on his offensive numbers. Hornsby wasn't a very skewed baseball player either. skewed baseball players in my opinion are guys like Joe Morgan and Yogi Berra. Yes, they were great players, and defined their positions. They played on many postseason teams. But let me ask you, who is Joe Morgan without the Big Red Machine, and who is Yogi without the legendary Bronx Bombers of the 50s? I'm not trying to discredit either of those players, but just something to think about. Hornsby played his entire career in the shadow of Babe Ruth. YEAH, THE BABE.

Greg Maddux: I have 4 unarguable starters on this team. Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, and Roger Clemens. ( i do not want to hear any steroid cards on Clemens. The man was proven NOT guilty for taking performance enhancing drugs, and proven NOT guilty for lying about it. There are ZERO positive tests on Clemens. his name is clear) Just like Barry Bonds, Clemens won 7 Cy Young awards, over 350 wins, struck out 4600+, i make a good case for those 4 guys.

Greg Maddux is an interesting choice i'll agree. Let me just say, Pedro was good, but this isn't about how good some one COULD have been, this is about how good people actually were. Pedro should have won over 300 games and struck out another 1000 batters, injuries really hurt his career. Christy Mathewson played in the Honus Wagner era, and i really don't like comparing those players to the players of the 40's and forward. Mathewson is good, i don't necessarily know how good. Players are getting better every single year, it'd be interesting to see how a round robin tournament would play out where the teams were sorted by decade. Would the modern day players domniate? or is it a case of, "there'll never be antoher golden age?" I think the same goes for me with Walter Johnson, i just don't know how good they were. We don't have footage, we can't really see them pitch and see how the hitters were against them. Yeah there's stats out there, but watching baseball is just another thing.

Tom Seaver was a tough choice to leave off. Trust me, he was in my notes glaring at me for the longest time. I chose Maddux because Maddux has over 350 wins, and 4 Cy Young awards. The guy was pinpoint with his stuff. He didn't need to throw smoke, because he'd carve you up and make you look stuuuupid up there. very crafty pitcher who always got his spots. very intelligent pitcher too. Not that Seaver doesn't have any of those skills, because he has ALL of those skills. It was a tough choice, but i stand by mine with Maddux.

I do like Spahn a lot too, but not over my rotation. If i'd throw Spahn in there, i'd take out Billy Wagner and convert Spahn to my lefty out of the pen. I also like Carlton, and you might have even swayed me to bump off Maddux for Carlton. Just kinda mad that Carlton and Gussie Busch couldn't come to terms over ONLY $5000 to keep him in St. Louis. Woulda been a Cardinal for life probably the way we do things in STL.

As for Juan Marichal and Schilling, i'm going to throw them together in the same basket. They both played in the shadows of some of the best pitchers the game has ever seen. It's tough with those two.

All the names you've mentioned indeed make the 40-man roster, no doubt there. It's just my opinion over another. I respect your opinion and your judgement calls, but i could sit and yak about baseball for the rest of my life, and never come to any conclusions with anyone else. All for the love of the game.

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Not going to get into the Clemens being proven not guilty, but Maddux belongs there. Him, Pedro, and RJ (Clemens if you're going to throw him in there) were the most dominant pitchers of their generation. That generation also is the most offensively lopsided generation in history too, and those guys still dominated. They all hands down belong in there.

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I don't think there is tremendous disagreement on Maddux. It is hard to argue with his success, and I certainly would not, but it is also easy to acknowledge the several other pitchers who could easily and rightfully fill his slot.

Bonds is a special case deserving of a separate post which will follow this one.

The real issue is Honus Wagner, and I should preface my remarks by saying that the only team I've ever had any passion for in sports plays in the Bronx. My dad and grandfather took me to my first game when I was 5 years old and I've been to several playoff and World Series games starting in the late 1970s; I certainly have nothing against Jeter in any way.

It is true that there is difficulty in measuring a player from Wagner's era to a player from today. Based upon pure stats, it's a clear runaway for Wagner, but the game has definitely changed. The one spot where Jeter has a clear edge is Home Runs (249 to 101) and that's probably the most significant place to point out how the game is different. Wagner has healthy leads in AVG (.328 to .313), RBIs (1733 to 1234), Triples (252 to 65) and Stolen Bases (723 to 346). The margin in triples and RBIs more than makes up for the lead Jeter holds in HR.

Wagner was a ridiculously better basestealer. Not only does he have more than double the number of steals, but he basically never got caught. Jeter's success rate when stealing is good at 79%, but Wagner's success rate when attempting to steal a bag was 97%!

Another big spot where the ratio shines brightly is with strikeouts and walks. Jeter's BB/K ratio is almost 60%, so he's striking out a bunch more than he is earning a free pass. Wagner's BB/K ratio was 131% which means he walked quite a bit more than he struck out.

But finally, the best way to try and compare great players from different eras is to match them up against their respective contemporaries.

In 17 seasons, Derek Jeter has led the league in Hits 1 time and in Runs Scored 1 time.

In 18 seasons with Pittsburgh (I'm only using data from 1900 forward), Honus Wagner led the league as follows:

8 Batting Titles

7 times led in Doubles

6 times led in Slugging Percentage

5 times led in Runs Batted In

4 times led in Stolen Bases

4 times led in On-Base Percentage

3 times led in Triples

2 times led in Runs Scored

2 times led in Hits

They are obviously both Hall of Famers, but Wagner was one of the select five honored in the very first class of 1936; at the very least, that says he's a Top 5 all-time player through that point. They are both great, but Jeter has never been anywhere near the dominant player that Honus Wagner was. Wagner was considered the best baseball player of his generation; I don't think Jeter would qualify for that kind of conversation by anyone including his family. Many believe Wagner to be the best player in the history of the National League.

Some quotes about Honus Wagner by baseball people:

Christy Mathewson ---- "Wagner was the only player that did not have a weakness. The only way to keep Wagner from hitting was to not pitch to him."

Babe Ruth ---- "At shortstop there is only one candidate, the immortal Honus Wagner. He was just head and shoulders above anyone else in that position. Fellows like Marion, Bancroft, Peck and Billy Jurges were all great fielders. But Honus could more than out-field all of them. He was perhaps the greatest right-handed hitter of all time. He had remarkably long arms, hams for hands, and just drew the ball to him. Ed Barrow once told me he could have been as good in any position but he made his greatest name as shortstop. He led the National League eight times at bat and he was always up with the leaders when he was in his forties."

Sam Crawford ---- "In my opinion, the greatest all-around player who ever lived was Honus Wagner. Ty Cobb could only play the outfield, and even there his arm wasn't anything special. Honus Wagner could play any position. He could do everything. In fact, when I first played against him he was an outfielder, and then he became a third baseman, and later the greatest shortstop of them all. Honus could play any position except pitcher and be easily the best in the league at it. He was a wonderful fielder, terrific arm, very quick, all over the place grabbing sure hits and turning them into outs. And, of course, you know he led the league in batting eight times."

John McGraw ---- "He was the nearest thing to a perfect player no matter where his manager chose to play him. He is not only a marvelous mechanical player, but he has the quickest baseball brain I have ever observed."

John McGraw ---- "I name Wagner first on my list, not only because he was a great batting champion and base-runner, and also baseball's foremost shortstop - but because Honus could have been first at any other position, with the possible exception of pitcher. In all my career, I never saw such a versatile player."

Bill James ---- "Wagner's 1908 season is the greatest single season for any player in baseball history. The league ERA of 2.35 was the lowest of the dead ball era and about half of the ERAs of modern baseball. Wagner hit .354 with 109 RBI in an environment when half as many runs were scored as today. If you had a Gold Glove shortstop, like Wagner, who drove in 218 runs, what would he be worth?"

Bill James ---- "Honus Wagner is the second best player of all time after Babe Ruth and easily the greatest shortstop of all time. The difference between Wagner and the second greatest shortstop is roughly the same as the gulf between the second greatest shortstop and the 20th greatest shortstop."

Regarding the bench and backups and A-Rod's ability to play both SS and 3B, don't forget that Pete Rose can back up at 1B, 2B, 3B and in the OF while Albert Pujols can cover 1B, 3B and the OF.

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I hate bringing up the whole steroids issue because so much is unknown about each individual player’s possible use and how effective it was for them, but the one guy who nobody really has any issue with pointing to the juice (nor should they) is Bonds. You can forget tests, forget court cases, forget anything provable in front of a judge; anyone who followed the story and understands what went down knows just about exactly what happened and when.

Given this storyline, and the exemplary way Hank Aaron conducted himself on and off the field, plus the fact that Hank doesn’t need to take a back seat to anybody as the all-time RBI King with 755 Home Runs and a .305 Batting Average, Aaron is the simple and obvious choice.

And with regards to the fact that Bonds could swipe bags, don’t forget that Aaron wasn’t too shabby as a runner either. He finished with 240 SBs but for the middle 10 years of his career he averaged more than 20 steals per season; plus, much like Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays, I don’t imagine Aaron was asked to run nearly as much as he could have… remember that Bonds came up as a string bean who was expected to steal bases.

But, onto the Bonds saga which shouldn’t be overlooked because it is undeniable:

Bonds was having a tremendous career on his way to a sure fire first ballot Hall of Fame induction from 1986 to 1998. During those 13 seasons he became the first 400/400 player with 411 HR and 445 SB. He hit for a solid .290 AVG with a great .411 OBP and a very strong .556 SLG. He was 34 years old and in all likelihood would have managed to get 55 more steals over perhaps another four seasons while adding another 100-150 homers, and would have created the 500/500 club anyway. I grant all of that; the guy was tremendous.

The problem is that from ages 35 through 42, he did stuff that Babe Ruth never sniffed just as his body got dramatically bigger and his hat size grew from a 6.5 to an 8. Are any of us so naïve to believe that this guy became the first ever to hit a sixth gear and prime after a prime upon reaching age 35? And no one should ever underestimate or ignore the timing of the catalyst which possessed him to reach beyond his natural gifts displayed over 14 MLB seasons plus his time at Arizona State.

After the strike of 1994 and an abbreviated 1995 season, things began to shift in 1996. Bonds had an historical season putting up 42 home runs, scoring 122 times, setting a new career high with 129 RBIs, and adding 40 steals to boot becoming just the third man to ever reach the 40/40 mark. Meanwhile, Brady Anderson knocked 50 dingers over the wall – despite never hitting half that many in any season before or after – and Mark McGwire led the majors with 52, his first time over 50 and his best total since his rookie campaign a decade earlier.

In 1997, Bonds was up to his usual business as he belted another 40 long balls – with 101 RBIs and 123 runs scored – while leading the Giants to the post-season for the first time since the earthquake World Series of 1989. However, at age 33 Mark McGwire seemed to find a fountain of youth by staying healthy for the first time since he played at that magic baseball age of 27. In 156 games split between Oakland and St. Louis, Big Mac set a personal best for the second straight year with 58 home runs.

1998 saw Barry Bonds remain Mr. Consistent as he hit 37 balls over the fence, drove in 122 and scored 120 times himself. Despite the continued excellence which allowed him to start a seventh consecutive All-Star Game in Left Field for the National League, things were not sitting well with the former Sun Devil as he looked around the landscape of his league. Sammy Sosa joined Babe Ruth and Roger Maris in the esteemed company of men to hit 60+ homers in a season by smacking out 66. Not ready to be outdone by the popular Chicago star, in St. Louis McGwire’s health again allowed him to play all but a handful of games, and for a third straight year he broke his own career mark while also setting the new single season record for MLB with 70 home runs.

Anyone who followed some of the outstanding journalistic reporting in the San Francisco Chronicle on this topic knows that this was when Bonds’ ego and anger really started to get the best of him. As great of a player as he was, his frustration with watching these other guys glorified – as they certainly were – was eating him up inside. Bonds was not envious of their success because he was any less talented; what bothered him was the fact that he knew all too well what was not a very guarded secret within the game. McGwire and others were using banned substances to enhance performance and increase durability while the league looked the other way simply hoping to continue its recovery from the strike that wiped out the World Series in 1994. It was at this point when Bonds began seriously looking into what was available on the black market which might allow him to elevate the level of his play beyond his already established standard of greatness.

1999 changed everything. McGwire sat out fewer than ten games for a fourth straight season while he and Sosa each blasted more than 60 home runs as if it was now something to be expected on an annual basis. As Bonds made his initial bid to compete with those guys according to their rules, he was not quite so fortunate. Lacking experience with the substances he began using, and no doubt eager to make a big splash as quickly as possible, Bonds blew out his elbow when the muscles grew too fast for the joint’s other elements to support it; he still managed to hit 34 homers but missed 60 games with the injury.

Looking towards his age 35 season, Barry Bonds had to understand that he was going to make some major changes happen pretty quickly, or he was going to miss out on what remained of his available window. During the rehabilitation of his elbow injury and the offseason, Bonds became more educated about the usage of steroids and human growth hormone. He surrounded himself with a small but select group of true experts on the way to use these enhancements. He entered play in 2000 with a bigger, stronger and more resilient body. Despite sitting out 19 games, Bonds set a new career record by hitting 49 home runs. Mark McGwire’s problems with injury returned in 2000 and he would never play 100 games in a season again. And while nobody returned to the 60 home run plateau that year, Sammy Sosa did manage to eke out Bonds by just one long ball to lead the majors with 50.

The anticipation for the 2001 schedule must have been something unimaginable by most for the 36-year-old Bonds. He was healthy, he had proven to himself that he could endure a full season while effectively managing the supplements he had added to his regiment, and he had to sense that the stage was set for him to break new ground. After an uneven April with 11 HR but just a .240 AVG, Bonds exploded in May hitting .369 with 17 HR and Slugging 1.036. By the All-Star Break, the HR watch was well underway; the bar had been raised to 70, but Bonds ended the first half with 39 HR, 73 RBIs and a .305 AVG while Slugging .826. The confidence gained from proving that he was just as capable of such feats on an even playing field propelled Bonds to even new heights after the break when he hit .355, slugged .908 and added 34 more home runs thus establishing the new and still current single season HR record of 73. He tied his career best by scoring 129 runs and set a slew of new personal records with 137 RBIs, 177 Walks, a .515 OBP and a SLG of .863. Between Pittsburgh and San Francisco, Bonds had won three NL MVP Awards in four years from 1990-1993. Now in 2001, he received the award for what would be the first of four consecutive seasons. He would never reach even 50 homers in a season again, although that can be attributed to the way he was pitched by opponents as he would be walked nearly 600 times over the next three seasons while still managing to hit 45+ HR in each of those years.

The problem with trying to overlook the steroid factor in this case is that the home run and walk numbers just became too outlandish to accept for a player who had passed his 35th birthday. For thirteen dominant seasons, Barry Bonds had paved his way to Cooperstown by hitting one home run for every 16 at bats, drawing one walk for every 5 at bats, striking out once for each 6.3 at bats, hitting for an Average of .290, earning an On-Base Percentage of .411 and a Slugging Percentage of .556. That was the Hall of Fame pace he was on through 1998.

Between 2000 and 2007, when Bonds’ age progressed from 35 to 42, the Giants’ leftfielder hit one home run for every 9 at bats, drew one walk for every 2.5 at bats, hit for an Average of .322, earned an On-Base Percentage of .517 and a Slugging Percentage of .724. Perhaps more telling than the fact he accomplished this at the advanced age which he did is that all of these massive improvements occurred while he actually struck out less often than before; one time for every 6.7 at bats.

There is no precedent for such an upward turn at such a late stage in a career, and when combined with what has been said by people close to the man, items which have been confiscated during federal raids, and the sheer change in the size of Bonds’ body – most particularly and significantly his cranium – there is little reason for anyone to maintain the pretense that this son of All-Star Bobby, godson to Hall of Famer Willie Mays, and cousin of Hall of Famer Reggie Jackson did not make use of banned and illegal substances in the final third of his major league career.

Without that late surge, he'd still be a great and in the Hall, but he wouldn't be mentioned on the level with the elites of the elite like Mays, Aaron, Musial, et al.

Edited by Qbrick808
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This is his lineup though and steroids isn't getting accounted. If Bonds is in there, no reason to break that down. We can argue back and forth all night long about how his career was affected by steroids, but at the end of the day, nobody knows how it affected his career. No one here knows when he started cheating and no one knows when he stopped. All we can do is speculate, and it's a moot point since it only happened one way. Unless anyone here has the super power to run a scientific comparison across two alternate universes where he didn't use and compare it to these accomplishments, it's a pointless argument.

Either way, I completely agree with Wagner though. Hard to swallow a 25 all time team that has Jeter and not Wagner. Jeter's not even the best SS of his generation let a lone all time. A-rod gives you versatility for SS and 3B off the bench but Wagner should be the man.

I also have to admit the OF is rather interesting. You've got three corner outfielders manning it. I understand that Teddy ballgame is one of the best hitters of all time, which is why he should be out there. But he was better than Musial, which is why Stan should be on the bench, or at least one of those three should be. It's supposed to be a tough decision, but you've got the two best CF'ers of all time riding the bench. It's not like either of those guys are slouches on offense, and are drastically better defenders seeing as it's actually their primary decision.

And lastly, it's hard to swallow having any all time great team that excludes the Babe.

EDIT: Anyhow, lets not flood this thread with this debate. It's not what he wanted to do. Start a new thread if we want to argue over this.

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pandora's box!

..i just got home from work, i read most of the stuff in my email at work, but i'm too fried to respond in any crazy depth.

i'm still excluding Honus, Hank, and Babe. I guess one thing i could say is that I grew up learning baseball in the Tony La Russa era, meaning having as many movable parts as possible, playing for the big inning, and really using your entire roster situationally and trying to think of the most ideal scenarios possible. once the big inning happens, replace your big boppers with solid defenders, stuff like that. that's still how i go about thinking about baseball.

to be honest, i have my own biases, opinions, and emotions. it's really just up to you. and saying Stan sits on the bench makes me wanna smack ya cross the face. Stan THE MAN never sits on my bench. but again that's your opinion and your way of seeing it.

i'd be interested in opening a thread for discussion on the best at each position, using all batting stats, fielding abilities, clutch factors, that factor that makes you call some players "gamers" like Rose, and really anything that defines a good player. Then creating an all time team based on that.

i'd really stir up some arguments then.

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pandora's box!

..i just got home from work, i read most of the stuff in my email at work, but i'm too fried to respond in any crazy depth.

i'm still excluding Honus, Hank, and Babe. I guess one thing i could say is that I grew up learning baseball in the Tony La Russa era, meaning having as many movable parts as possible, playing for the big inning, and really using your entire roster situationally and trying to think of the most ideal scenarios possible. once the big inning happens, replace your big boppers with solid defenders, stuff like that. that's still how i go about thinking about baseball.

Isn't there a contradiction in there regarding Honus Wagner? You want movable parts, the big inning and situational use of the roster. In what way is Derek Jeter a movable part? He mans one position on defense and he plays pretty much one brand of ball at the plate. Wagner has everyone singing his praises that he would have been the best player in the league at any position other than pitcher, and he's a guy who led the league in power numbers as well as small ball stats multiple times. His ability to steal bases with only a 3% risk of getting caught allowed him to be crazy diverse right during the same inning on a regular basis.

Babe Ruth belongs on any list, but a big part of why he's considered the best player of all time is because of the fact that he could also pitch. Since you're not taking that into account, I can actually give you a pass there because it's clearly just a case of personal preference.

Hank Aaron was better than Barry Bonds hands down and really deserves the nod if there's a battle between those two.

But more than anything else discussed here, Honus Wagner is just a gimme. You said Hornsby gets a spot because he's the consensus best 2B of all time. Wagner is no less of a consensus pick as the top SS of all time. Did you read those quotes about him? I'm not a huge Bill James guy, but even if you disregard his, see what the players and managers had to say. The man had 8 Batting Titles, 5 RBI Titles and 4 SB Titles... he led in SLG 6 times and OBP 4 times; that's diversity. He was the best player of his age and Jeter has never even been voted the best player in the AL for a single season. The strangeness of the dead ball era actually makes Wagner stand out even more and only bolsters his case. He was doing things at a time when nobody was doing much of anything. If he's seen by so many as the best SS ever, the best National Leaguer ever, and perhaps the best or second best player ever outright, it's hard to buy any logic which favors Jeter over him, and even harder to understand him being absent from the entire roster.

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jeter is my ideal leadoff hitter. plays good defense, has some pop in his bat, batting over .300, steals bases, and i've seen him play in the modern era. i've seen him put the yankees on his back in October. (and November). he can pinch run if he comes off the bench, he can play the whole game and lead a team. he has certain intangibles that might be him in his own class among any player. The only thing i have with Honus are stats, and those stats come from the turn of the century. i can't know how comparable the game was back then and how his stats convert.

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