All-Timers All-Stars - AL CF

[baseballfans]

Come on guys is Mickey Mantle.

I mean who got the most expensive baseball card in this list.

No question the MICK

[Sean O]

Come on guys is Mickey Mantle.

I mean who got the most expensive baseball card in this list.

No question the MICK

Wow. This is without a doubt the worst argument I've ever seen. Just freaking amazing. Wow.

[Homer]

i've actually seen worse. and yes it was on this very site unfortunately. but that was pretty dang funny.

[abhall]

Vote for this guy. He was nice to the handicapped and disabled. :grin:

[Sean O]

abhall-

I've never seen a picture more likely to go wrong in a few seconds in my life.

Leg braces and beanies lay everywhere mere moments later.

(but he hit .400 in consecutive seasons)

[Yankee4Life]

Wow. This is without a doubt the worst argument I've ever seen. Just freaking amazing. Wow.

Again, I side with Sean O. :)

[paulw]

Not even close - Mickey Mantle. There is no comparing anyone before and after the color line was broken. Also, no one has ever come close to having the combination of thunderous power and lightning-like speed as Mantle.

[krawhitham]

Not even close - Mickey Mantle. There is no comparing anyone before and after the color line was broken. Also, no one has ever come close to having the combination of thunderous power and lightning-like speed as Mantle.

??????????????????????????????????

Mantle 536 HR 153 SB

JR 574 HR 180 SB

HMM

JR = more power and more speed

and a little thing like 10 gold gloves

[baseballfans]

Yeah if you compare stat Griffey Jr is the complete package as AL CF. And the reason I use the baseball card reference was because I don't want to put down on any player to show he is better. All of these player are great in different way.

I vote for mantle because he is still American icon even after all these year.

[el_jefe061]

I think people's votes should be a combination of who the player actually was, like how we feel about them besides stats, and the actual stats. For instance, if there's someone who's stats aren't quite as good as the other guy, yet they played with a certain style we loved or he won a ton of rings and was a clutch guy, it's reasonable to vote for the guy who's stats weren't as great but had that extra something.

[abc006]

??????????????????????????????????

Mantle 536 HR 153 SB

JR 574 HR 180 SB

HMM

JR = more power and more speed

and a little thing like 10 gold gloves

In the 50s the entire league stole about 350 bases. In the 90s, the league averaged about 1,500 SBs. Mantle was known for his lighting speed, but also happened to play in an era with one of the least stolen bases. If he played in the 80s, he could defenitely be a 40/40 guy. Also, you've got to remember that in the 50s, many ballparks were still monstorous in size, being built in the 20s or 30s, center field routinely being around 450 feet. Griffey had and has the priveledge of playing in numerous notorious hitter's parks, like the kingdome. In the long run perhaps it wouldn't have made much difference, but enough that their stats would at least be more equal. One thing they both have in common is that without the numerous injuries, they could be even greater than they are.

[Homer]

mantle was relatively fast to his era, a period in which steals weren't as prevalent. so he was a hare amongst turtles. or could it be he was just merely a really fast turtle? it's all kinda relative. i mean jesse owens was damn fast, and by no stretch of the imagination is considered slow. but he couldn't hold a candle to the sprinters of today. all we can really compare are the numbers, as all the intangibles are too various to take into account. maybe the pitching back then just sucked, regardless of what we think. or maybe the pitching of today sucks, and then makes griffey's numbers inflated. don't really know, but i tend to lean towards the former than the ladder. the game has progressed over the years, and so have the athletes. technological advances alone give players today the advantage. but how do you really handicap that?

[abhall]

Mantle's OPS + (adjusted for leage avg & park) is 172, #6 of all time. Jr's is 141, #67 of all time. Adjusted OPS + is one of the best barometers for analyzing offensive effectiveness and the gap between JR & Mantle is huge. Mantle was clearly the better player.

[ro290190]

What was griffey's adjusted OPS in the AL ?

[krawhitham]

In the 50s the entire league stole about 350 bases. In the 90s, the league averaged about 1,500 SBs. Mantle was known for his lighting speed, but also happened to play in an era with one of the least stolen bases. If he played in the 80s, he could defenitely be a 40/40 guy. Also, you've got to remember that in the 50s, many ballparks were still monstorous in size, being built in the 20s or 30s, center field routinely being around 450 feet.

what is this just say whatever you like day, there is NO PROOF to that at all

You know what is strange, with his flash like speed and the king kong sized ballparks he played in one would think he would have more doubles that JR

but they would be wrong by 111 doubles

[abc006]

I can dig out numerous articles and pieces of literature that say that Mantle was without a doubt the fastest man on the team, one of the fastest in the majors. People weren't slower back then - if Mantle played in a more stolen base emphasized era, he could be a Soriano type person, only better. Mantle stole 21 bases in 1959, a year where the entire league stole 414 bases. That's about 5% of the entire league's SBs. Soriano last season stole 41 bases, out of 1,515 total bases in the NL. That's about 2.7%. Jose Reyes stole 64 bases, 4.2% of the league total. Griffey, in his highes stolen base total season, 1999, stole 24. That's 1.6% of the total stolen bases of 1999. Not only that, but Mantle could have stolen even more if he didn't bat in the middle of the order, a place stereotypically for a slow power hitter- easily 30 SBs at least 1 year, if not much more. There's also no proof that Griffey could hit like he does in the 50s - like abhall said, the difference of their OPS+ is huge, and OPS+ does not lie.

Mantle's plate discipline was also far superior to Griffey's: Mantle's career OBP is .421, while Griffey's is .374, and Griffey only hits lifetime 7 average points lower. Mantle's career high in walks is 145 - Griffey's 96. Griffey has drawn a little over 1,100 walks in his career, Mantle 1,733. I'm not sure if there's such thing as OBP+, but if there is, I'm sure Mantle would lead him in that category too. Griffey is a great player, but not as great as Mantle.

[krawhitham]

I can dig out numerous articles and pieces of literature that say that Mantle was without a doubt the fastest man on the team, one of the fastest in the majors. People weren't slower back then -

then why did they not steal bases?

forgot they were allowed too?

they stole bases before the 50s and after the 50s

players in the 50s on average must have been slow

They must have been show if Mantle playing in giant parks could not get more doubles than JR who plays in toy sized parks

[abc006]

The game changes, you know that. For whatever reason, people just didn't steal as much back then. Ok, in 1949, Dom DiMaggio led the entire AL with only 15 steals. Luis Apricio led the AL 21 steals in '56 - and it's not like the AL was an offensive powerhouse like it is now, the game was still pretty similar in both leagues. Throughout the 50s, the leading stolen base leader was consistently around only 35 steals. Not until the late 50s and 60s did the steal become re-energized, like Maury Wills stealing 104 in 1962. The general consensus in that era was that stolen bases did more harm than good with the high probability of getting caught. (And they were actually right.) The game goes through phases - for whatever reason, the 40s and 50s were low in stolen base total, while pretty much every other era had a significantly larger running game. Please, people were not slower then, and you know it.

[JOET]

If you understand baseball, know what league average and park adjustment mean. And realize how diulted baseball talent is today compared to the 50's when the American League was 8 teams. Mantle won the triple crown with a .353 BAVG, 52 HRS and 130 RBI's - all this in a Park that took away 500 HR from his career totals. If he played in one of today's hitters parks there would be no controversey over the Ruth / Bonds HR Record. Mantle would have had over a 1,000. (25 - 30 - 400+ foot fly balls outs per year) And of course if you throw out all the steroid cheaters stats that have ruined the game and the record books forever) there would be no controversey today either. Mantle was the best center fielder by far in an era you could only appreciate if you were there to see it. Why ...Willie Mays stats may be better than Griffey - check them you will be surprised and he is not even on the list.